For the next #SpillingTheTea interview, we sat down with a man who’s been wearing multiple creative and cultural hats in Croydon these past few years. (Dr) Dan Winder is the Artistic Director and CEO at Stanley Arts in South Norwood. For the past 2 years, he has also been the ‘This Is Croydon’ (Borough of Culture) Steering Group Chair. And going forwards, Dan is on the Board of Trustees at Croydon Creative Enterprise – the CIC that has been set up to ensure the legacy of the Creative Enterprise Zone.
What's your definition of a Creative?
Punchy start trying to define that one - but let’s give it a go.
I would suggest that a “Creative” (as a noun) is someone who forms something from scratch – that could be a practical, hands-on activity or equally, a creative idea that they pass on to someone else.
I think use of the word has grown, in part, because of the change in the working environment. Back in the day, if you were a potter, you made pots. If you were a dancer, you danced. Everyone stayed in their own lane. But nowadays, largely in response to technology, the lines are blurred. To make a successful creative business, you need to do a lot more. Potters and Dancers now need photos, websites and social accounts. That requires collaboration with others to discuss (and deliver) creative content solutions.
Ultimately, to be a Creative, is to work within a broad range of both the subsidiary and commercial sectors, so the term could cover everything from artisan makers, dancers and choreographers, through to people who shoot film, design graphics or make social videos. What we all have in common is that we work in a space where we’re starting with an imaginative idea – which we then bring into reality.
What does Culture mean to you?
That’s even harder than defining Creative! Once you start bringing in social and economic context, the word becomes so broad, that it can start to lose meaning.
Culture used to be considered “posh” – if you said culture you were likely talking about theatre, opera, ballet and generally something considered “highbrow”. There were moments where some forms of “lowbrow” art (like tv, film and music) became considered Pop Culture. And then, with the rise of hip hop and graffiti, Urban Culture also became a term. Over more recent years, (highlighted by programmes like the Mayor’s Borough of Culture) there’s been a huge movement to democratize Culture so all art forms sit under the same term.
To me, Culture is also about the zeitgeist – society’s thoughts and beliefs and how they express themselves. When we talk about Cities of Culture or Boroughs of Culture, we’re often talking about the dialogue between the two definitions of culture - about how the tight definition of culture (eg dance, theatre, music etc) talks and responds to the broader definition of culture (politics, social conditions etc).
How did you come to work at Stanley Arts?
In a former life, I have a Physics PhD but that was half a lifetime ago! Broadly speaking my background is in the Arts – I started acting and ran my own theatre company for a long time (Dan ran Iris Theatre in Covent Garden for 12 years) then around 2018, I was looking to progress in the cultural space and I was itching to get my hands on running a cultural building. I saw the role at Stanley Arts, which I thought looked interesting because (despite being around for over 120 years) it didn’t have a big cultural footprint. When I joined in 2019, the local community had only relatively recently taken over the running of the building from the Council. It was still finding its feet in terms of what it wanted to be – a volunteer led Community Centre or a more professionally managed Arts Space. We spent a good 18 months exploring different ideas and options but ultimately concluded that (in part due to its size) it needed to be a multi-arts centre – somewhere that supported and showcased professional art (that would attract audiences from across South London) but that also had a really strong local community engagement programme.
I’ve been here for 5 years now, and it’s been a brilliant experience building a cultural programme embedded in community whilst also running a heritage programme (and getting hands on experience in managing a historic building).
What role does Stanley Arts play in the Croydon community?
In short, multiple roles! Arts Centres are quite interesting because out of all the cultural buildings (be that theatres, concert halls, museums etc) I would argue they are generally the ones that are closest to their local communities. A lot of people self-exclude from cultural buildings (with a “oh the theatre, that’s not for me” attitude) but Arts Centres have much lower barriers to entry and more opportunities to bring in people from all walks of life.
At a more obvious level, we provide quality entertainment for people to come and watch (from award-winning theatre performances to comedy festivals). We also provide a place for people to explore their own creativity (e.g by hosting creative classes and workshops). The other thing we do (which is more unique to Arts Centres than typical cultural buildings) is provide a Civic space. For example, after the media storm surrounding Regina Road flat scandal, the Council needed to do some urgent engagement with the community and so they ran all their meetings and events from here.
We’re also a place for private celebrations (we’re licensed for weddings and have held numerous birthdays and anniversary parties) and we’ve hosted multiple wellness events like yoga classes and gong baths.
Within the building, we also have 9 studio spaces for small businesses to rent – so for example, we have a furniture repair company and a vinyl print company operating from here. We also house 3 theatre companies here (ZooCo, Boundless and Birdgang) and multiple other creatives (including a Crystal Healer).
At a much broader level, as a Heritage building, we also play a role within the community of holding memories and providing a sense of place. The very fact we exist, means people and walk past or come in and can recall moments and memories that have shaped them.
How involved was Stanley Arts in Borough of Culture?
Very! At Stanley Arts, we took the lead on the Heritage and the Queer Arts strands of the ‘This Is Croydon’ programme of events. Whilst there wasn’t a formal Dance strand, we also supported (and informally led) the majority of dance events that took place.
Stanley Arts also hosted a couple of the larger funded (Ignite) projects including ‘Journey of a Refugee’ (run by Theatrerites) and ‘Family Dysfunction’ (run by Birdgang). We also held space for ZooCo’s ‘Nightshift’ project.
Beyond that programme element – Stanley Arts was selected as one of 3 ‘Cultural Hubs’ (alongside Fairfield Halls and Turf) during Borough of Culture. These hubs were tasked with doing a bit more work in terms of engaging the local community with the programme. As part of this, each hub had a Community Producer who was on hand to provide a little back-office support. Vicky, our Community Producer, did a particularly great job of helping out with projects that were happening in Central Croydon (things like Mela and Pride).
The other big piece of work that I did personally, was take on the role of Chair of the Steering Group.
So, for some overview background – Croydon first applied to become the Mayor’s Borough of Culture in 2019. That proposal was put together by Croydon Council but very much informed by the ‘Croydon Cultural Network’ (a group of around 700 creatives from across the Borough). Whilst that proposal wasn’t selected for 2019, all was not lost. A revised version was submitted, and it was announced (in Feb 2020) that Croydon had won the title for 2023.
And we all know what happened after that (!) The impact of both Covid and the Council being given a Section 114 (effectively becoming bankrupt) inevitably took their toll on preparations and plans for Borough of Culture.
Normally what happens when a Borough receives the title, is that the Council match funds the money provided by Central government and puts together a dedicated team to run proceedings (including event programming, marketing and evaluation). They then bring in the local arts sector as delivery partners. But in Croydon’s case, the Council weren’t financially able to match fund or put a full team in place (in fact, core team members weren’t in post until early 2023). It was a difficult time and there was even talk about Croydon pulling out, but our Cultural sector stepped forward and took more of a hands-on role to make sure this great opportunity wasn’t lost.
We started out with a huge Steering Committee and multiple sub-groups – but ultimately, trying to get that number of people (many of whom were volunteering their time for free) along to the same meetings (and aligned!) was impossible. I ended up taking on the role as Chair and Carolyn from Talawa Theatre became Deputy Chair to help move things forward. This wasn’t an entirely altruistic decision on my part. At Stanley Arts, we had been bidding for National Portfolio Organisation (NPO) status from the Arts Council since 2021. By taking on a leadership role, it allowed me to solidify Croydon’s reputation as Borough of Culture and then use that as a strategy to accelerate the growth of Stanley Arts (and better serve the Croydon community as a place-based organisation).
What is your vision/hope for the legacy of BoC?
'This Is Croydon' has done a great job in bringing together and connecting local cultural organisations and people working within that space. But culture (as I spoke about earlier) is more than just the arts organisations. We need to build this network, so it better incorporates local communities (like faith groups and charities).
The Borough of Culture delivery teams and steering groups are currently being restructured into a new model. ‘Culture Croydon’ (a working title) is headed up by four co-chairs (Honey Gabriel, Katia Del-Rio Smith, Katie Hurley and B Atherton) with support from Riah Pryor.
Ideally, ‘Culture Croydon’ will become a network/consortium that encourages and enables the local arts sector to pull together (and share resources, skills and knowledge) to run more projects that benefit Croydon’s community.
Ultimately, as an arts sector, we are all working in a resource scarce environment (from both a local area perspective and from an industry perspective). But we need to avoid falling into a resource scarce mindset. Seeing each other as competitors rather than collaborators, often ends up with organisations gatekeeping opportunities and industry relationships – which is detrimental to the development of our sector as a whole.
Nowadays, so much arts funding is based around place-making. Funding proposals that are submitted with multiple local arts organisations involved are seen far more favourably (as they are less risky) so it’s vital we all work together.
How does this differ from plans for the Croydon Creative Enterprise?
From my perspective, I see ‘Culture Croydon’ (however that network evolves) as being a bigger umbrella organisation for culture and the Croydon Creative Enterprise as being one of the sub-networks within it. In my mind, Croydon Creative Enterprise will be focused on creative business – and delivering training and skills.
So, the Croydon Creative Enterprise will be on hand to provide services, train people who run (or want to run) creative businesses and as a whole, will be focused on the business/money-making side of the creative industry.
What advice would you give to a Creative who is keen to do more work in Croydon?
Network! Dedicate time to getting out there and meeting creative locals. Be clear on what it is you do and what type of opportunities you’re looking for. Also – connect with people who work in larger organisations within your art form and ask for a 15 min coffee with them.
Get involved with the Creative Croydon Enterprise – sign up for a free profile on the Directory. That’s the network we’ll be communicating opportunities (like free training or networking events) to in the future.
And take a look at the Creative Digital Lab who also offer subsidised training.
What are the biggest challenges facing Croydon's Creative community?
Overall, resources – and whilst it would be easy to say money, I would argue that space is also an issue. Specifically, access to affordable space. Croydon has so many empty or underused spaces that creative organisations and people could do wonders with, but business rates make using them impossible. Added to that, these empty units and buildings are often an empty shell that require fitting out. And even if you can find a way to make that happen on a budget, more often than not, you will only have access to the space on short term/temporary basis – making it hard to invest and properly settle in.
I think another challenge is in terms of movement. Croydoners don’t tend to move across the Borough – for example, someone from South Norwood is more likely to go for a night out in Central London that they are in Purley. So, it can be hard to get the local community (an audience that should theoretically be the most supportive) to attend shows and events.
Then another key challenge surrounds the overall reputation of Croydon and ensuring more positive messaging is reaching wider London audiences.
What do you think are the biggest opportunities for Croydon's Creative community over the next 5 years?
Working collaboratively – for all the reasons I’ve already mentioned in terms of securing funding.
Youth - we’re a very young Borough so there’s huge opportunity for us to tap into that youthful energy.
And last but not least – "Westfield". We’ll know more in the next year about how serious URW are but behind closed doors, they are talking a good talk. Realistically, spades won’t be in the ground for another 5 years BUT that leaves a huge amount of opportunity for Meanwhile Use within the building. Also, with the move away from traditional retail and a focus on mixed-use, they will likely be looking for smaller scale independent makers as well as pop-up cultural spaces and programming.
Further info:
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